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What to do when someone leaves early
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ouliwei
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Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: What to do when someone leaves early Reply with quote

What do you do when a player leaves early and is not knocked out by someone. The system wants to put in an eliminator because it is managing the players and each player gets a point for knocking someone out. So we don't want to just hand over a knockout to someone.

Any ideas?
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drneau
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget about the app for a second.

If someone leaves early, you should really post their blinds/antes until one of the following happens:
- They return, or
- They get blinded out

That said, if you are of the believe that a player who leaves has no right to progress any further in the tournament and you want to eliminate them without an eliminator:
- Go to the "Definition" screen and set "Track Eliminators" to false. You can still track eliminators with this...they'll just be optional.

I really think you should blind them off.
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MaxPower
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree - anyone that leaves early should get blinded out... It's the same as if they show up late.

-Max
No one dares leave early from a WCRPL Tournament... The SHAME!!!
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ouliwei
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem is that most people leave late in the game. I have a game that goes from 7.00 pm that the last hand is dealt at 11.25. The placing is done by chip count. Do I still blind them out and count their place when they leave at 10.30?

In addition, most tourneys around here will evenly distribute the chips to everyone left, and any remainder goes to the next pot. what are your thoughts on that?

And do you still deal them cards as you would a late comer and muck their cards when their bet comes, or do you burn their cards immediately?

Thanks for the info.
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drneau
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouliwei wrote:
the problem is that most people leave late in the game. I have a game that goes from 7.00 pm that the last hand is dealt at 11.25. The placing is done by chip count. Do I still blind them out and count their place when they leave at 10.30?


No. You should blind them out and then count the size of their stack when the game is over at 11.25. Otherwise, someone would be incented to get a huge chip lead and get up and leave. You should pretend they are still there but passed out at the table.

Quote:
In addition, most tourneys around here will evenly distribute the chips to everyone left, and any remainder goes to the next pot. what are your thoughts on that?


So, I could've been playing perfectly all night and have a pretty good chip lead. The person in 3rd place decides to get up and leave. You put all his chips into the pot for the next hand. I get dealt 7-2 and am facing a huge raise from the 2nd place guy who happened to be dealt pocket Aces. Do I fold and lose the chip lead, or do I play my crap and potentially lose even more? No win situation.

So, what you've done is put a lot of luck into one hand, and it isn't fair to me. I personally wouldn't play in a tournament that did this with an exiting player's chips...which I guess means I won't be playing in most tourneys in your area.

Imagine a basketball game where your team worked really hard to get a 10 point lead. Just before the end of the game, the ref says, "Okay, here's a magic ball. Next team to score gets 50 points!! Whee!!!" They flip a coin and the other team gets the ball.

Quote:
And do you still deal them cards as you would a late comer and muck their cards when their bet comes, or do you burn their cards immediately?


To me, this depends. If there is any chance of them coming back, then I'd keep dealing them cards and muck them when the dealing is complete.

If they've said, "I'm done for the night," then I wouldn't waste time dealing them cards at all. Some idiots would argue that it screws up the odds for everyone else or gives everyone else different cards then they would have....but those idiots are idiots and don't understand statistics. Still, others would deal them cards just because that's what you should do...but I think if you know they aren't coming back, then just keep posting their blinds and working the button through them.

The point is that someone paid to get into the tournament, and it isn't fair to disqualify them when they have to leave early.

Quote:
Thanks for the info.


Thanks for the discussion.
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LA_Rounder
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:35 pm    Post subject: what to do. Reply with quote

the "correct" thing to do is to post their blinds and antes and deal them into each hand. they muck their hand if not in the big blind ("BB"), and they muck if their BB is raised.

if one or more players limp into a pot with the away player in the BB, then (inexplicably) check the hand down, there is a showdown. the away player can actually win if they show down the best hand.

this actually creates an odd dynamic at the table wherein people will play more aggressively when the away player is in the BB, hoping to force the action around to the SB, who then must decide whether to give up his and the away player's blind. the rest of the time, the SB can raise if the action is folded to him, taking down the away player's BB without a fight.

so, that's a drawback to this sort of play. i would make it a point to tell people that if they commit to the game, they should stay until the end unless there's an emergency. i've had people come to my game and have to leave 3 or 4 levels in, and it just screws everything up because they want their money back since they can't play, or they play like maniacs, etc. etc. no "away" player has ever cashed in my game...
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Rewind
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Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7pm until 11:25pm. That's a short game for us. I have people show up at 6:00 so I can get the game started close to 6:30. The game will normally run to 1am.

Back on topic, I agree that if they leave, the Blinds should be posted. I would deal cards to them just in case someone wanted to be stupid enough to check them to the river.

'That guy who's not here has one hell of a poker face'.
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drneau
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rewind wrote:
I would deal cards to them just in case someone wanted to be stupid enough to check them to the river.

'That guy who's not here has one hell of a poker face'.


Technically, an absent player's hand is mucked immediately after the deal is completed.
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jalsing
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Joined: 13 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drneau wrote:
Rewind wrote:
I would deal cards to them just in case someone wanted to be stupid enough to check them to the river.

'That guy who's not here has one hell of a poker face'.


Technically, an absent player's hand is mucked immediately after the deal is completed.

Yes, and it was alway odd to me why online poker allowed absent players to win pots (i.e. they're absent so long the get put all-in in a blind. They are allowed to showdown and possibly win the pot) UB it seems has finally put a stop to this, I was just in a tourney and a guy was all-in in a blind and all I had to do was call from the SB and he mucked...
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drneau
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jalsing wrote:
drneau wrote:
Rewind wrote:
I would deal cards to them just in case someone wanted to be stupid enough to check them to the river.

'That guy who's not here has one hell of a poker face'.


Technically, an absent player's hand is mucked immediately after the deal is completed.

Yes, and it was alway odd to me why online poker allowed absent players to win pots (i.e. they're absent so long the get put all-in in a blind. They are allowed to showdown and possibly win the pot) UB it seems has finally put a stop to this, I was just in a tourney and a guy was all-in in a blind and all I had to do was call from the SB and he mucked...


Cash games have a different rule than tournaments. For cash games, your hand is mucked when the action gets to you.

Also, with the internet, your absenteeism may not be your fault due to a bad network connection. Is it fair for someone's hand to be mucked on the turn because their ISP went out to lunch for 2 minutes?
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Stick
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Joined: 20 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: not according to Robert's Rules Reply with quote

Had my first walkout last weekend, and noticed that, in Robert's Rules, the "correct" thing is to disperse the chips evenly between players at the table.

According to Robert...

and his rules...

So's you know.
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drneau
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: not according to Robert's Rules Reply with quote

Stick wrote:
Had my first walkout last weekend, and noticed that, in Robert's Rules, the "correct" thing is to disperse the chips evenly between players at the table.


I normally don't respond to this forum during working hours, but this requires a response because unless you correct me I assert that the above statement is absolutely false.

Robert's Rules does not address how to handle a player who leaves the tournament.

There is mention of how to handle a player who has been disqualified: Remove their chips from play.

There is mention of how to handle a player who didn't show: Try to contact them. If they are coming, keep their chips in play. If they aren't, remove their chips.

There is mention of what to do when a player is absent from a cash game: Take their chips away and let someone else play.

Dispersing chips evenly among players at a table would be about the least fair thing you could do. When it comes to a tournament, the only discussion should involve this: Do you remove their chips altogether, or do you blind them out? The popular (and correct, in my judgement) opinion is this: If you aren't going to give them their money back, you shall blind them out. If you aren't going to blind them out, then you shall return their entry fee.

Please point me to the location in Robert's Rules where it says, "disperse chips evenly between players at the table". A URL with a section/rule number would suffice.

Please keep this in mind also: While the vast majority of items in Robert's Rules apply to all forms of poker, there are some rules that are specific to cash games and not tournaments.
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Stick
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Joined: 20 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: ah, so! Reply with quote

Ouch! I am mistaken, dear sirs.

I had taken the rulebook posted on homepokertourney to be Robert's Rules, and have been quoting it as such in more than one circumstance. Thank you very much for pointing out my err.

Here is where it is listed in the HPT rulebook: Under "Players Leaving"
http://www.homepokertourney.com/docs/rulebook/poker-rule-book-hpt-7-fullsize.pdf

FYI: I also disagree with dispersing the chips. My solution last weekend was to remove the chips from play, and that will be my house rule in the future as well.

Thank you Dr. Neau.
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drneau
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. That explains it.

While that may be nutn's rule, many of his main contributors to the forum (including me) disagree with that rule.

Here are a few threads on his forum that debate it:

http://forums.homepokertourney.com/index.php?topic=5358.0

http://forums.homepokertourney.com/index.php?topic=5539.0

http://forums.homepokertourney.com/index.php?topic=2147.0
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Chlos
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In any situation to be fair to a multi-table tourney once a stacke has been introduced it needs to be blinded out, or in a rebuy tourney, replaced with a new active player. There would be instances where they could be removed(less than one level). If the original issue is problems with people leaving early do to preset time restraints, you may want to consider tinkering with your structure: fewer chips, quicker blinds, however if the goal is to keep everybody in the game till its over. maybe a cash game with very small denomination chips disberced to equal the original buy in. Anyone leaves anytime. Cash Out. No problems. Just a thought.

Thanks-

L.T.
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pfapfap
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granted the responses were back in February, but I think ouliwei's original statement was that chips were evenly dispered, and any odd chip was put in the next pot. Not the entirety of the stack, as the response seemed to indicate. Smile

I say just blind 'em out.

A question, however. If they're folded immediately, what happens if the missing player is the BB and everyone folds to the SB? Half a bet returned to absent BB?
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LA_Rounder
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfapfap wrote:
Granted the responses were back in February, but I think ouliwei's original statement was that chips were evenly dispered, and any odd chip was put in the next pot. Not the entirety of the stack, as the response seemed to indicate. Smile

I say just blind 'em out.

A question, however. If they're folded immediately, what happens if the missing player is the BB and everyone folds to the SB? Half a bet returned to absent BB?


the SB picks up the pot, and the dead money.
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MaxPower
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's easy... SB calls - wins the pot.

Max
Vote for Pedro
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drneau
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxPower wrote:
That's easy... SB calls - wins the pot.

Max
Vote for Pedro


Or,

SB sweats it out, goes all-in and wins the pot.
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Chlos
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my Knowledge the only way a non-seated position can win any pot is if only one player moves into the pot all-in and does not have enough to equal the big blind. He can only win the equal amount of chips from each player he plays. Most casino and house rules state "Meat In The Seat": a non seated players cards are mucked when the button recieves his second card reguardless of position, including the blinds. Some house rules extend leways i.e. BB is in the restroom. That is up to the local TD. In any case dispersing chips equally is not something your better players will favor. Reguardless of the size of the stack, the blinds will elininate the position soon enough.

L.T.
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