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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:07 am Post subject: Player moves and table consolidation |
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I have still only used TM for a single table tournament, but I ran a test tourney with 48 pretend people today to test a bunch of things, and I have a few suggestions. What does everyone else think?
1. Add player moves to event log. If you accidentally hit Enter to acknowledge the dialog, it would be very handy to just look in the history tab to see what it was. It could be added as a "note" so that it wouldn't really matter to the log.
2. Add an option to automatically move players between tables without the warning dialog. When the tables are unbalanced, you are asked every time if you want to move someone. It would be nice if after the first time, TM could just skip that dialog and simply display "Bob moved from table 1 seat 2 to table 2 seat 3" or whatever.
3. When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to?
Bob from Table 1 seat 2 moves to Table 2 seat 3
Travis from Table 1 seat 3 moves to Table 3 seat 7
Mary from Table 1 seat 5 moves to Table 5 seat 6
One more thing. I think the seating chart overlay will be a GREAT enhancement for anyone who does multi-table tournaments. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with all of what was said earlier and have one more to add. Most of the tournaments that I run - along with others here in Denver - have nicer tables they like to make the final tables. Is there a way to default to have certain tables alway active? This would be contrary to breaking down the shorthanded table but applies in my home game in several other large tourneys here in Denver... |
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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm not totally sure, but I think TM consolidates tables down to Table 1. This means that you should make your nice tables the first on the list, and your not so nice tables later in the list.
I'd have to do some more playing around with it, but I think that's what happens. |
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drneau
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 2385
Location: Woodbury, MN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: Table consolidation |
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| Quote: | | Is there a way to default to have certain tables alway active? |
The higher a table is on the list, the longer it stays active. You should make the final table the first table on the list.
| Quote: | | Add player moves to event log. |
Doable. I was also thinking of adding a "seating snapshot" event type to the log. It would allow you to log where everyone sat whenever you wanted.
If I'm doing this, the history log needs to be filterable, like the way the player info panel is.
Feedback?
| Quote: | | Add an option to automatically move players between tables without the warning dialog. |
Well, either the dialog comes up, asks you what you want to do, and you acknowledge it...or a dialog comes up telling you that a player was moved and you have to acknowledge it.
My preference is to leave it the way it is. It's just one extra mouse click.
| Quote: | | When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to? |
Why not?
Just needs to be developed.  I would end up putting the move info into a scrollable text area because you could potentially be reseating 100's of players.
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http://drneau.com
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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Add player moves to event log.
Doable. I was also thinking of adding a "seating snapshot" event type to the log. It would allow you to log where everyone sat whenever you wanted. |
That could make the history log very large though, and I'm not sure that is its purpose. I'd much rather see a nice screen with table representations and player names in them. Or at least a chart with names and seating positions. The overlay future enhancement is greatly anticipated...
| Quote: | Well, either the dialog comes up, asks you what you want to do, and you acknowledge it...or a dialog comes up telling you that a player was moved and you have to acknowledge it.
My preference is to leave it the way it is. It's just one extra mouse click. |
Fair enough. After thinking about it more, it's probably a good idea to keep it as it is. It gives us a choice to manually do it or let the computer...
| Quote: | | Quote: | | When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to? |
Why not?
Just needs to be developed. I would end up putting the move info into a scrollable text area because you could potentially be reseating 100's of players. |
100s of players? Really? Wouldn't it normally just do one or possibly two tables at any one time? This is also a great time to use the seating chart idea then so everyone can just look at the screen and see where they're supposed to be.
Jeff |
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drneau
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 2385
Location: Woodbury, MN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Some tournaments reseat everyone at certain points.
For instance, doesn't the World Series reseat everyone each day?
_________________
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Dr. Neau (not a real doctor)
http://drneau.com
http://home.comcast.net/~jneau |
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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I was just thinking of the scenario where people are getting knocked out and the program is moving people around to balance things, and then it decides that one of the tables can collapse and move the remaining people to existing tables.
In that case, there'd likely be fewer than 8 people moving so a list wouldn't be a big deal.
If we chose the option to reseat ALL players, then obviously, a dialog wouldn't be a good idea. The seating plan would be the way to go I think. |
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MaxPower
Founding Father
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 390
Location: Funky Cold Medina - Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I read somewhere that there is actually some sort of rules and logic about how you're supposed to seat players as the tourney progresses or something... Homepokertourney.com lists the following:
| Quote: | Moving Players
If the number of players differs by two or more between any two tables, one player must move from the highest populated table to the lowest populated table. When forced to choose between removing a player from more than one equally populated table, one card will be dealt (by the lower populated table’s dealer) to each of the tables in question. The low card table (ace of spades is high) will move a player.
When a player is eliminated and a move must be made, the player ‘playing a hand’ in the same position (seat), relative to the button, at the highest populated table must move to the eliminated player’s seat. The move must occur before the next hand is dealt at any table. For the purposes of this rule, a player is ‘playing a hand’ once all the blinds/antes have been posted and the dealer has begun shuffling (riffles the deck).
A moved player will be dealt a hand at the start of the next deal and assume any obligation of the new seat including the posting of a blind or dealing.
Moving occurs after the conclusion of all hands being played at all tables. If several players must be moved at the same time, begin with the eliminated player, at the lowest populated table, closest to the left of the button.
Example: There are 8 players at TableA, 8 players at TableB and 7 players at TableC. A player three seats to the left of the button is eliminated from TableC. The TableC dealer deals one card to TableA and one card to TableB. The player presently playing a hand three seats to the left of the button, at the low card table, must move to the eliminated player’s seat at TableC. That player will post the big blind at the new table, just as he would have had to do if he had stayed at his original table.
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I'm sure something like this could be coded in (if it's not already) to be done automatically...
-Max
not a real Simpsons character... |
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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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You bring up a number of great points. The rules you pasted are to make things fair when moving players from one table to another. It's unfair to take someone who just got on the button on one table and move them to the big blind on another table. They just posted the blinds on their old table, so it's not fair to have them post again at the new one.
TM can't know where the button is at any given time, so it's not really possible for it to pick the "correct" person to move from one table to another, but there are a couple of ways I would deal with this.
1. When TM detects that a table needs more players, it tells you in a dialog box which tables have more players, and gives you the option of manually choosing someone or letting the computer do it. If you want to make sure to pick the "correct" player, you should choose manual and then deal the cards like your excerpt said.
2. I'd personally, just let the computer choose a random player. It's unbiased and nobody complained at the last tournament I participated in. The rules we went by was that when you get moved to a new table, you could wait for the button to pass you and then start playing (thereby missing the blinds), or you could start where you are and pay the blinds when they get to you. That way, if you just posted blinds at your old table, you weren't forced to post them at the new one until the button made it's way around the table.
I've commented on a couple of the sections from your excerpt. What do you think?
| Quote: | | If the number of players differs by two or more between any two tables, one player must move from the highest populated table to the lowest populated table. When forced to choose between removing a player from more than one equally populated table, one card will be dealt... |
This is handled by the random pick of the program. There's no need to deal cards because TM just picks someone from the higher populated tables.
| Quote: | | A moved player will be dealt a hand at the start of the next deal and assume any obligation of the new seat including the posting of a blind or dealing. |
This assumes that you moved the "correct" person in relation to the button. If it was just a random player, I'd give them the option to wait until the button passes.
| Quote: | | Moving occurs after the conclusion of all hands being played at all tables. |
I wouldn't expect the room to sit and wait for a player to move. He'd just play out his current hand, then gather up his chips and move to the new table. Then he'd wait for the button and then start playing. (in my opinion)
| Quote: | | If several players must be moved at the same time, begin with the eliminated player, at the lowest populated table, closest to the left of the button. |
This is something that the program COULD do. I'm not sure what logic the good Doctor has set up for this function, but this could be done in the code.
The example you provided is actually a really good one. And it makes a lot of sense. But in a larger tournament when you're using the software to seat people and consolidate the tables, it won't know where the button is, so it would be much easier on you (the tournament director) to let the computer handle things.
Of course, you always have the option to manage everything manually, but that would probably mean that you're not actually playing poker, but just running the tournament. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Since you eliminate players 1 at a time, it does this by default, doesn't it? |
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jumperjeff
"Miracle Flush"
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 118
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think it does, but only Dr. Neau knows the logic behind how the computer does the player moves.
But, you can easily eliminate multiple players in one hand, so it's not always the case that only one person will be gone at a time.
Players that are selected to be eliminated at the same time are set to TIE in TM though, so if you really want to be true to the rules, you're right in eliminating one person at a time in proper sequence. |
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drneau
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 2385
Location: Woodbury, MN
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Dix
"Royal Flush - No Hat"
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 246
Location: W.Poland Maine - USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Player moves and table consolidation |
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Back to the original point....
| jumperjeff wrote: |
1. Add player moves to event log. If you accidentally hit Enter to acknowledge the dialog, it would be very handy to just look in the history tab to see what it was. It could be added as a "note" so that it wouldn't really matter to the log. |
I'll second this motion... in fact one of those "other" programs does exactly that... and it's a nice feature.
| jumperjeff wrote: |
2. Add an option to automatically move players between tables without the warning dialog. When the tables are unbalanced, you are asked every time if you want to move someone. It would be nice if after the first time, TM could just skip that dialog and simply display "Bob moved from table 1 seat 2 to table 2 seat 3" or whatever. |
Would be a nice option... but should be accompanied by an audio event if used.
| jumperjeff wrote: |
3. When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to?
Bob from Table 1 seat 2 moves to Table 2 seat 3
Travis from Table 1 seat 3 moves to Table 3 seat 7
Mary from Table 1 seat 5 moves to Table 5 seat 6 |
Ditto this one too.... along with adding it to the log for referral if needed. |
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Terr
"Ace High"
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Table consolidation |
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| Quote: | | When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to? |
Why not?
Just needs to be developed. I would end up putting the move info into a scrollable text area because you could potentially be reseating 100's of players.[/quote]
It would be nice if this could be printable. Would also be a great help to be able to print an overall seating chart to reference against who is actually there. When we have 140 players there are always a handfull of people that get pissed and leave without checking out. |
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drneau
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 2385
Location: Woodbury, MN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Table consolidation |
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| Terr wrote: | | Quote: | | When a table gets consolidated, TM doesn't say which table is broken up, or where the players must move. It just says "refer to the seating chart". Why not just display a dialog with a list of everyone who is moving and where they're moving to? |
Why not?
Just needs to be developed. I would end up putting the move info into a scrollable text area because you could potentially be reseating 100's of players.
It would be nice if this could be printable. Would also be a great help to be able to print an overall seating chart to reference against who is actually there. When we have 140 players there are always a handfull of people that get pissed and leave without checking out. |
The app now pops up a dialog showing you where everyone has moved from/to.
Seating charts can now be logged to the history (next version will let you view/edit that history component and export it to html).
_________________
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Dr. Neau (not a real doctor)
http://drneau.com
http://home.comcast.net/~jneau |
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drneau
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 2385
Location: Woodbury, MN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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I think everything in this thread that makes sense to implement has been implemented and released in one way or another.
Anyone disagree?
_________________
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Dr. Neau (not a real doctor)
http://drneau.com
http://home.comcast.net/~jneau |
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Dix
"Royal Flush - No Hat"
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 246
Location: W.Poland Maine - USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Yep... I think you've about got it covered.
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- Dix |
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clay
Loser
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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abso-friggin-lutely.
Love the moving players relative to the button funtion.
So awesome. Nobody can whine about where they go.
"Dr. Neau says you sit here! So sit down and shut the f*** up!"
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Dix
"Royal Flush - No Hat"
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 246
Location: W.Poland Maine - USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: |
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LOL..... yea.... blame it on Doc.... Works for me every time 
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